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Thread: Bastion of Twilight Strategy Notepad

  1. #111

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    Quote Originally Posted by Takaoni View Post
    Hmmm I don't think I'm articulating this well at all I should probably move to a visual medium. I can't even begin to think why that 2nd video you linked ever put the 2nd pile where they did. When I'm talking about making new piles, I'm talking about making them tangental to the edge of the current seep (but inside of it) so the theory would be that the new piles will never overtake the room that would be lost by the spread of the first one. So from that video I'd take the first 5 whelps to the place that they eventually kill the first 10 and kill them. Making the "Master Puddle" The next 5 drakes would then be killed directly over the seep of the master puddle and so on. The only reason that people might elect to hold off on the first 5 would be because if you place the master puddle too early it, by itself, considering no other puddles, will be too large by the end of the fight. That's totally cool but all future whelps would be killed into the master puddle. But in those videos they group up 10 more drakes and make a 2nd giant puddle by the front of the room and I definitely don't agree with that.
    Ok, but even in this case, you're ignoring major flaws in this entire idea, even if the whole theory of a "core" and a "seep" is true (which it almost certainly isn't, as that mechanic hasn't existed in the past as I recall, and the graphical difference in puddles just seems to be the texture stretching out as it expands).

    For starters, there's no easy, safe, reliable way to actually kill a whelp far enough inside an existing puddle to have the edge of the new whelp puddle not stretch over the edge of the old one without actually standing in/on the edge of the puddle yourself. Even then, the inclination is to skirt the edge of the puddle, but since it always expanding, we're talking low single-digit yards in distance between safely doing what you intend and suddenly taking 20-60k damage puddle damage depending on the Twilight Spit count at the time.

    More importantly, you aren't acknowledging the impossible geometry of putting whelps in a valid location within the puddle without you yourself stepping in it. Due to the radius size of the initial puddle from a whelp, I'm quite certain there's no way to put a whelp deep enough inside an existing puddle while meleeing you without also being in the puddle yourself as I mentioned above, but even if it is possible, we can be certain that location will have to be as far into the puddle as possible: the radius of the initial puddle or slightly more. However, because the movement path of a whelp is identical to that of the tanking player, with no other variables, the line of travel is always a straight line, which means you can never place a whelp inside the puddle without also stepping into it yourself. If you skirt the edge, the whelp too will skirt the edge, and even with minor NPC jostling that occurs while tanking, it won't be the desired distance or location at all -- they will be off to your side toward your starting point before travel.

    Typically in a straight path you get something like this:


    Now, even if you could slightly cut the puddle with something like Heroic Leap or a Shockwave stun and quick run around, you'll never cut into it enough to actually move to the opposite side of the puddle to create your ideal puddle drop location. Also, the puddle size is ever-increasing, meaning the amount you could "cut" to force whelps in where you want will be ever smaller.


    Then, due to the "core" vs "seep" theory, if a core actually exists, this means whelps must be killed in new locations around the puddle each time. This requires a leap/lockdown movement for every single one, yet the DPS requirement is quite high and won't allow for such time wasting things. Whelps have 200k health, and they spawn every 50 seconds, so this requires 20,000 constant DPS from the moment they spawn to the moment the next set responds. Reality is 5 seconds are spent gathering best case, so we're talking upwards of 22k DPS required, which just isn't happening if you're killing them off one at a time in select locations, yadda yadda.

    Quote Originally Posted by Takaoni View Post
    It's not the stacks of the whelp debuff that I'm concerned about but rather the stacks + 5 extra whelps hitting me - that's where the damage really gets crazy. It's like taking whatever the debuff is at it's absolute worst and multiplying it by 2. The fight's phases provide enough of a break for the stacks to fall off the drake tank without needing to swap people's roles.

    I'll draw a picture later.
    No. Whelps spawn every 50 seconds outside of Phase 2, so the only time for natural stack reset is during Phase 2 (which was already mentioned in my first post). You'll never be able to drop a stack in Phase 3 naturally since the debuff lasts 60 seconds. Dropping the stack will require immunity from Vik as mentioned, or stopping whelp tanking.

    Ultimately, I don't understand the obsession with these ideas. Puddle growth is only an issue if they are single-killed as seen in the videos that do it that way, and the 10-stack double-kill completely eliminates the danger of them by keeping everything quite tightly packed. It seems you're overly concerned for no reason and we've spent far too long debating it -- this is a convoluted solution to a problem that doesn't actually exist, based on a theory that isn't even proven. Not trying to be a dick (more than normal), but whelps are the least of our worries and we have a very workable strategy already setup.
    Last edited by Kulldam; 06-23-2011 at 08:34 PM.

  2. #112
    VOTE ME RAID LEADER 2012! Takaoni's Avatar
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    Yeah we're completely talking past eachother on nearly every point. I'll draw a picture sometime today. I'm not talking about killing whelps individually I'm talking about killing piles of 5 at a time instead of waiting for a pile of 10 and then using a DPS to help me kill them. I know I can get reasonably close to the DPS level required simply because I've already done it at least halfway without trying. I also no longer believe that the seep does anything at all except that if I place a new core on the edge of a seep the new core's seep wont ever overtake the old one thereby mitigating the need for me to sit on my hands for 50 seconds and then endure a small period of "getting face pushed in" for the purpose of "this will spawn too much garbage" excepting, perhaps, the first spawn. Even if I never reset my stacks I will never take as much damage as I do waiting for 10 and killing only having 5 and killing them.

    My goal here isn't doing something crazy but rather removing the need for a DPS to help me (if possible, again I don't know but I'd like to try) and removing any scare-factor healers might have as they should already be plenty busy with other things. Even if I do need a DPS to help me it wont be much but I think the benefit for the healers will remain no matter what.

    If it doesn't work it doesn't work and I'll be able to find that out in 1 or 2 pulls.

  3. #113

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    Notes for Heroic: Council:

    Phase 2 Change

    Kain pointed out something that I totally never noticed on this fight (btw, RIP this sorta shit when Dungeon Journal hits, sadface), but after confirming it in our fraps, it turns out the Fire Patches always spawn on a random player location. Maybe this is common knowledge to others, but I never noticed myself, probably cause we're nearly constantly moving and shit is just generally crazy. This simple fact has a dramatic impact: Namely that at any given time, we can control where Fire spawns. Due to this control, this leads to some very promising possibilities for handling the most difficult aspect of this phase and fight as a whole.

    The basic idea is this: Keep the raid together as much as possible, thus controlling where fire spawns. To elaborate, I've illustrated the overall plan.

    1. Raid Primary Position

    By default, the raid should have a general location (the center of the room) to be in when no other action is necessary. While we aren't meant to be stacked tightly on top of Vikrum, at the least we're all within ~10 yards, ranged and healers can stack and melee/tank can stack as well. Vik/melee will need to move slightly back and forth when Eruption hits of course, but for the most part the idea is to allow as much stationary time as possible for everyone involved.

    Now, once an orb spawns (as seen at the blue circle), regardless of the actual spawn location, the entire raid immediately moves opposite of that spawn location.



    2. Move Opposite Orb Until Fire

    As a whole, the raid continues running away from the Orb until a fire patch hits, and since the patch must target a player, we know it will be somewhere in that vicinity we ran to, as seen in the red circle.



    3. Raid Resets

    Once the Fire patch has dropped, the entire raid (save the orb target) can circle back around to the original position (or pickup a nearby debuff if necessary). Orb spawns seem to occur every 20 seconds, which gives us about 12-14 seconds on average after Fire drops to make our way back to our normal position in the middle to repeat the process.



    Advantages

    There are a few major advantages that I can see from this sort of setup:

    1. Many aspects of the fight changed from a free-for-all to a group-think mentality -- that is to say, since we move and react as a group for the most part, any given individual does not have to play to perfection in reaction to everything that occurs, like they would in our normal setup. Instead, the group as a whole can react accordingly, stabilizing the process.

    2. Higher DPS: Since the entire raid is not randomly spread out at all times, it will be more stable and more consistent DPS for both ranged and melee DPS, especially for those Orb targets that should not have to run nearly as long.

    3. Single debuff locations: Often a big issue is everyone running to get a particular debuff for the AE, coming in from dramatically different angles and often to different locations entirely. This can cause frequent positioning issues from wind knockbacks or gravity suctions. Instead, one person can direct the group to the most efficient debuff location when needed, such that everyone can perform the same task for the most part.

    Lightning Rod, Poor Debuff Locations, Eruption

    Obviously handling Lightning Rod is even easier with this method as there are very clear open areas for the individual to move to away from the grouped up raid.

    One possible issue is that a necessary debuff such as Winds will spawn on the far opposite wall to our current location (say in picture 3 above when we're just moving out of a Fire patch). When that occurs, again we still move as a group to the designated location, and adjust our orb handling accordingly. Perhaps the orb spawns in the center right after getting our debuff and thus we can't really move to the far opposite direction to drop fire. Still, we can announce where the group should locate and while this may cause the occasional Fire location to be in a non-ideal location, we can still revert back to the original plan/spot shortly, still keeping the majority within our controlled system.

    Lastly, it's worth mentioning that keeping more of the raid grouped near Vik means a bit more potential danger from Eruption. The key here is interrupting Hardened Skin from Terrastra of course, but even still everyone should take measures to avoid it. We'll have a WeakAuras warning made up for the raid to indicate when that is casting so we can watch our feet, but it should be pretty easy to avoid.

    I'm fairly excited to give this a shot tomorrow as I think adding just a bit of control and lessening the individual responsibility for all involved will be the kind of boost we need to stabilize Phase 2 a bit more and get us the handful of attempts we need on Phase 3 to finally drop these fools.

  4. #114

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    Few notes for Heroic: Sinestra:

    Not a whole lot to add, I think we have the overall strat down and just need to practice doing P3 more.

    Wrack

    The good news is that Wrack damage is not altered by the loss of the damage reduction buff Sinestra drops for Phase 3 (example). I also had to spend a stupid amount of time, but was able to determine and fix the issue with my GridStatusSinestra addon (it hadn't been fixed for the recent COMBAT_LOG changes), so that will make things a little easier in terms of just keeping track of Wrack for me so I can spend more focus elsewhere.

    Otherwise I think our strategy and timings are sound and will work through the fight.

    Whelps

    We have Phase 1/Phase 2 handling working really well, and I think Phase 3 using Vik is necessary due to our DPS and just takes some more practice. Once into Phase 3, I think we should stick with waiting for 2 sets of Whelps before AEing them down, primarily because this will create only one puddle per two sets rather than two puddles per two sets. It's entirely possible we won't need that much room, but it's something we should certainly plan for and can adjust later as necessary. Thus, the Whelp handling will look like this:

    Phase 1/Phase 2
    • Set 1 + Set 2 on Taka, killed back left near entrance, revived, and killed again.
    Phase 3
    • Set 3+4 on Vik, killed back right near entrance, revived, and killed again.
    • Vik bubbles to drop debuff stack.
    • Set 5+6 on Vik, killed between Sinestra and Set 3/4 position (along right wall), revived, killed again.
    • Before Set 7 spawns, Vik taunts and tanks Sinestra.
    • Set 7+8 on Taka, same as before, moving closer to the boss along right wall each set.
    • Taka on Sinestra again, Vik on whelps 9+10.
    • Repeat, trading every double-set of whelps to ensure debuff drops.

  5. #115
    VOTE ME RAID LEADER 2012! Takaoni's Avatar
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    Ahh yes the tank swapping for P3 will definitely add stability. To make that transition easier after the whelps die the first time the tank could even move directly to Sinestra to allow the melee/other tank to assist in that 2nd burn and quick swap as needed incase the whelp spawn timers start to get in our way. Maybe not necessary at all - just a thought.

  6. #116

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    Quote Originally Posted by Takaoni View Post
    Ahh yes the tank swapping for P3 will definitely add stability. To make that transition easier after the whelps die the first time the tank could even move directly to Sinestra to allow the melee/other tank to assist in that 2nd burn and quick swap as needed incase the whelp spawn timers start to get in our way. Maybe not necessary at all - just a thought.
    That's definitely a good idea, especially since tanks can move into the melee position well before the whelps "respawn", allowing for no threat of attacks from behind and such.

  7. #117
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    From what I've seen the new copies of the whelps retain all threat and even debuffs of the dead versions as well so no need to worry about threat or anything.

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