I like Wildhides idea here. Beacon healing might be the key. I was finding it fairly easy to keep up full hots on the marked people and the tanks. It was the spike damage as well that was causing things to break down. Once I needed to start using nourish as well I couldnt keep up a full hot rotation.
Well gay.Originally Posted by Wildhide
Well to be fair, two healers was death too -- a lot. ><
Two paladins would certainly be strong and we can give it a shot, but there's also a fair bit of misc damage on non-MT and non-Mark targets from Blood Boil/Boiling Blood that I think is being ignored that normally HoTs would help cover. Without any form of fire and forget healing from Paladins, when we have 3 Marks and are sub-30%, Paladins will be virtually unable to afford spending a GCD outside of healing the Mark targets, lest a triple-8k streak hit someone again.
As for number of marks, I'd say you're on crack if you think we're going to get a kill in 3 doing it "normally". We're going to lose raid DPS just by swapping to Paladin healers, which is fine of course, but we're definitely not on track to dropping Saurfang before a fourth mark. Best case would be shortly after and hoping the target of the fourth can blow cooldowns or whatever to survive.
One thing I was also thinking about is we're doing the best we can with Blood Nova and Blood Beasts and we never spread Blood Nova and we virtually never (if we don't screw up) get hit by Blood Beasts. We're also transitioning tanks from Rune of Blood fast enough for zero or one melee swing per transition that generates Runic Power. So really, the only skill that leaves we might be able to improve upon is Boiling Blood.
I looked through our logs of our 102/103 second attempts (the ones where we avoid all Beast damage and all Nova spread and do near-perfect tank transitions), and from zero Runic Power to the first Mark cast, I get the following stats of abilities he's using that give Runic Power:
I also ran the numbers in half a dozen other logs from our attempts, totalling the damage dealt from all valid abilities that increase runic power prior to first Mark (Boiling blood, Blood Nova, Blood Beast Melee, Rune of Blood Melee) and found the following total damage was dealt, regardless of timespan or tick counts or blood beasts hits etc:Code:Boiling Blood ticks: 35 ticks, 7 casts, 195126 total damage Blood Nova: 4 Hits, 42468 total damage Rune of Blood: 2 Hits, 12721 total damage Total damage dealt: 260,101 Total ticks: 41 Runic Power Gained: 100
Those are from attempts ranging from 103 seconds till first mark and zero blood beast and perfect transitions to 90 seconds to Mark with Blood Beast damage. That seems a pretty good indicator to me that the Runic Power he gains is based on actual damage dealt rather than any arbitrary value for each various ability he uses (such as 1 power per tick of Boiling Blood), as most guides/players would have you believe.Code:265624 260101 263275 259794 264412
Now, knowing that, we can basically calculate that for every 2600 damage dealt in any of those ability methods, he'll gain 1 Runic Power. Therefore, if we remove Boiling Blood when the opportunity arises, we can theoretically and reliably delay the first Mark cast for a while. Hand of Protection, Ice Block, and Divine Shield all for sure remove Boiling Blood. Each Boiling Blood cast deals 5000 Physical Damage a tick over five ticks, modified by his Runic Power boost at the time of the cast since it's a DoT. Now, while I'm assuming Runic Power gain is based on damage dealt, which the information above leads me to believe strongly, then it would be in our interest to remove Boiling Blood casts that go out when his Runic Power is higher. Obviously we can't wait till he hits 90 cause other abilities will push him over, but say we start at 60 Runic Power and try to remove each Boiling Blood thereafter. We'll get at least 2 from Hand of Protection, which means the damage of that Boiling Blood cast would be:
The next Boiling Blood would probably be around 70 Runic Power, so 42,500 damage. Therefore, by using our two Hand of Protections early before the first Mark to get rid of Boiling Blood on targets that can't self-immunity, we prevent 82,500 damage, which translates into 31.73 Runic Power he'd normally gain that he won't have. The trickier part is to determine how long that would extend the time to the first Mark, but given he casts Boiling Blood every 10 seconds, we'd probably gain about 17-18 seconds (not quite 2 extra Boiling Bloods worth, since misc damage such as Blood Nova is still going to hit).Code:5000 * 1.6 * 5 = 40000 damage
Still, if Kilwenn, Thawfore, or Khrashdin when not tanking also get Boiling Blood on them at some point, they can self-immune immediately to knock off another 10-20 Runic Power that otherwise we're completely "soaking" without the need.
The downside to Hand of Protection early like this is if we decide our strategy requires it later in the fight for Boiling Blood targets that are also Mark targets, then obviously this goes out the window.
This is correct as damage from Runic Power-based abilities between the cast of Mark #1 and Mark #2 remains the same (~260,000), whereas adding Mark#1 damage pushes total damage dealt to over 650,000, which would obviously mean the next Mark would trigger much faster.
All in all, I'd be interested in trying a combination technique of what's been suggested here. Double-paladin healer, HoProt/bubble/iceblock a few early Boiling Bloods to delay that very first Mark as long as possible, force the first Mark to die immediately, release, battle res, and repeat. I'd be very surprised if doing that we'd have more than two marks total by the end of the fight, which means each Paladin can keep Beacon on a separate tank full-time and spam a Mark target.
I'm quite under the impression that the Mark of the Fallen Champion is not removed until the encounter is over. Even releasing while the encounter is still in progress and zoning back in after a wipe will keep the mark on you (in which case you have to zone out and back in to remove it.)
I have some anecdotal evidence to support this.
I saw someone get rezzed after a wipe (I believe it was Kil), and his mark stayed on him after he rezzed. It took a couple seconds - I assume for a check to see if the encounter was still going - for it to fade.
Yes, we get it guys, you will be first to get mad props if it doesn't work mkay?
At worst it will cost us one wipe and 10 minutes to try this, so stop harping -- the fact is there's never been a case where Blizzard has coded a debuff that remains on a player once they have zoned from death in spirit form and my expectation is this is the same. If not and it rechecks for valid targets every so often, so be it, no skin off our nose and it changes nothing about the other proposed improvements.
About the usage of HoP/immunity to avoid Blood Boil.
Would it be better to use it early?
While it's true we prevent less damage from it, we also extend the time Saurfang do lower damage(because of low RP)
So it's a trade off between, say he's stuck at 60RP for 20s and we prevent the extra blood boil damage, or we keep him at 0 RP for the 20s and do lower damage on all abilities(Blood Nova, Rune of Blood, Bloodboil that didn't get HoP'd).
And if we do use HoPs near the start, they might be up again later into the fight(my Gargoyle(3min) usually comes up around mid-fight)
Definitely something to consider, but my original feeling on this was that given we're doing it prior to the first Mark, thus the only high damage is on the tanks, we should have no issues healing the "high damage" output from him staying at higher RP longer than normal.
On the other hand, since he seemingly gains RP at a faster rate the higher his RP climbs (meaning his abilities are dealing more damage which is giving more RP, etc.), it may be a six of one half a dozen of the other situation where preventing early RP buildup extends the time till he goes into exponential increases, whereas doing it later stops a larger amount of RP for each cast.
*shrug* We can try both and see what the difference is.
Here are the first dozen or so, not skipping or selecting data, examples from this log and expression query during one of our attempts. I cut the two pre- and two post- parry melee swings for Saurfang in each instance. You'll notice his melee swing is almost certainly set to 1.2 or 1.25 seconds base and that holds consistent for the delay between every swing, regardless of following a parry or not.
For further evidence, see the attachments for plot graphs of a MATLAB script output that parses logs for parry haste verification. Each dot indicates a melee swing, with the delay between the previous swing on the Y axis. Blue dots indicate a normal swing with no parry preceding it. A red dot shows a swing where 1 or 2 parries preceded it. Therefore, with enough data, a mob with parry haste will likely have some red dots below (thus a lower millisecond delay) the majority of the other dots. As you can see, Saurfang has no indication of Parry Haste, along with most of the mobs in ICC. Deathwhisper is the only known mob with parry haste but since her melee is so weak it's logical Blizzard would flag her as such and irrelevant to those tanking her.Code:[22:28:53.455] Deathbringer Saurfang hits Kulldam Parry [22:28:54.682] Deathbringer Saurfang hits Kulldam 10835 [22:28:55.226] Kulldam hits Deathbringer Saurfang Parry [22:28:55.885] Deathbringer Saurfang hits Khrashdin Parry [22:28:57.104] Deathbringer Saurfang hits Khrashdin Parry [22:29:07.965] Deathbringer Saurfang hits Khrashdin Parry [22:29:09.139] Deathbringer Saurfang hits Khrashdin 12329 [22:29:09.590] Kulldam hits Deathbringer Saurfang Parry [22:29:10.480] Deathbringer Saurfang hits Khrashdin 10377 (B: 1625) [22:29:11.588] Deathbringer Saurfang hits Khrashdin 10991 (B: 1625) [22:29:07.965] Deathbringer Saurfang hits Khrashdin Parry [22:29:09.139] Deathbringer Saurfang hits Khrashdin 12329 [22:29:09.590] Kulldam hits Deathbringer Saurfang Parry [22:29:10.480] Deathbringer Saurfang hits Khrashdin 10377 (B: 1625) [22:29:11.588] Deathbringer Saurfang hits Khrashdin 10991 (B: 1625) [22:29:17.498] Deathbringer Saurfang hits Khrashdin 13536 [22:29:18.775] Deathbringer Saurfang hits Khrashdin Parry [22:29:18.967] Kulldam hits Deathbringer Saurfang Parry [22:29:19.951] Deathbringer Saurfang hits Khrashdin 12444 (B: 1625) [22:29:21.151] Deathbringer Saurfang hits Khrashdin Parry [22:29:28.408] Deathbringer Saurfang hits Khrashdin Dodge [22:29:29.578] Deathbringer Saurfang hits Khrashdin Parry [22:29:29.760] Kulldam hits Deathbringer Saurfang Parry [22:29:30.796] Deathbringer Saurfang hits Kulldam 12463 (B: 3127) [22:29:31.940] Deathbringer Saurfang hits Kulldam 12920 (B: 3127) [22:29:52.348] Deathbringer Saurfang hits Khrashdin 16401 (B: 1625) [22:29:53.659] Deathbringer Saurfang hits Khrashdin Parry [22:29:54.301] Kulldam hits Deathbringer Saurfang Parry [22:29:54.727] Deathbringer Saurfang hits Khrashdin Parry [22:29:59.059] Deathbringer Saurfang hits Khrashdin Parry [22:30:00.271] Deathbringer Saurfang hits Khrashdin Parry [22:30:01.466] Deathbringer Saurfang hits Khrashdin 7352 (B: 1625) [22:30:02.279] Kulldam hits Deathbringer Saurfang Parry [22:30:02.678] Deathbringer Saurfang hits Khrashdin 8836 [22:30:03.887] Deathbringer Saurfang hits Khrashdin Parry [22:30:37.576] Deathbringer Saurfang hits Kulldam Miss [22:30:38.780] Deathbringer Saurfang hits Kulldam Parry [22:30:39.159] Kulldam hits Deathbringer Saurfang Parry [22:30:39.988] Deathbringer Saurfang hits Kulldam 11412 [22:30:41.180] Deathbringer Saurfang hits Khrashdin 10132 (B: 1625) [22:30:43.614] Deathbringer Saurfang hits Khrashdin 10824 (B: 1625) [22:30:44.812] Deathbringer Saurfang hits Khrashdin Dodge [22:30:45.594] Kulldam hits Deathbringer Saurfang Parry [22:30:46.030] Deathbringer Saurfang hits Khrashdin Dodge [22:30:47.222] Deathbringer Saurfang hits Khrashdin Dodge [22:30:59.266] Deathbringer Saurfang hits Khrashdin Parry [22:31:00.471] Deathbringer Saurfang hits Khrashdin 13618 [22:31:01.490] Kulldam hits Deathbringer Saurfang Parry [22:31:01.679] Deathbringer Saurfang hits Khrashdin 13121 (B: 1625) [22:31:02.893] Deathbringer Saurfang hits Khrashdin 13045 (A: 1229) [22:31:31.757] Deathbringer Saurfang hits Kulldam 8226 [22:31:33.003] Deathbringer Saurfang hits Kulldam 8390 [22:31:34.012] Kulldam hits Deathbringer Saurfang Parry [22:31:34.219] Deathbringer Saurfang hits Khrashdin Miss [22:31:35.436] Deathbringer Saurfang hits Khrashdin 7785 (B: 1625) [22:31:34.219] Deathbringer Saurfang hits Khrashdin Miss [22:31:35.436] Deathbringer Saurfang hits Khrashdin 7785 (B: 1625) [22:31:36.577] Kulldam hits Deathbringer Saurfang Parry [22:31:36.633] Deathbringer Saurfang hits Khrashdin 7318 (B: 1625) [22:31:37.860] Deathbringer Saurfang hits Khrashdin 8233 (B: 1625)
Like it or not, your previous tank that was in love with expertise wasn't the best player in the world and neither am I, but I think you've been mislead if you were told expertise cap is required these days for Main Tanks. Parry Haste used to be prominent and a moderately big issue when tank damage was severe (the hits were large enough that two swings without between heals would kill you) but those days are long over. As mentioned before, Blizzard disliked the mechanic and has removed it from most bosses where parry haste would likely cause a gib situation. They've also purposely designed tank damage in ICC to be less gib-like overall, which of course further dilutes any parry haste that may occur.
Tanks who stack expertise nowadays do so purely as a threat boost, but I've personally never had issues with threat and thus prefer a pure mitigation/effective health set. For tanks that want higher DPS and higher threat, expertise is great, but I've never viewed that as my primary duty so I don't sweat it.
As mentioned before, based on data and what we know about the mechanics of the fight (that is, would it be illogical for Parry Haste to exist, which of course it would), it's almost 100% certainty that Saurfang doesn't have parry haste. Moreover, as I said it's irrelevant because he doesn't seem to do it at all, and if he does it's going to be such a rare occurrence it's pointless to try to counteract it for a loss of mitigation and avoidance stats.
Things confirmed today:
-Hands of Prot/Iceblock/Divine Shield do reduce the RP gained by Saurfang.
-Release-Battle Res do remove Mark of the Fallen Champion.
Fixed.
Also looking back at our logs, it looks like Sun was alive after res for about 18 seconds without receiving a new Mark, so that seems a pretty strong indicator there isn't a recast script checking for previous targets (as if so, I'd imagine they'd make it much more frequent).
So, given that and the confirmation of the RP slowing through Immunities of Boiling Blood, if we manage Boiling Blood removal and Blood Beasts flawlessly and get at least 1 Boiling Blood on a Paladin or Kilwenn (very likely within the ~7-8 casts it will now take before first Mark), we can assume about 130 seconds from engagement until the first Mark. Due to DPS, tank gear requirements, and the ease for resses, we'll probably be best off using Thawfore and Wildhide as healers with Kheelan feral DPS. This will put us just slightly under our best-case Raid DPS from previous attempts, at around 50,000 RDPS. This means we'll deal about 6.5 million to Saurfang (47%) by the first Mark cast. Mark target will die about 7-8 seconds in, putting Saurfang back up to 8.26m (67%). We'll then have to assume ressed player loses about 5 seconds of DPS time coming back into the zone, but that's a slight loss of maybe 35,000 damage max.
Now we'll assume zero immunities on Boiling Bloods this round, so ~102 seconds to the next Mark. This will put Saurfang back down to 3m (24%) health, so if these numbers reflect reality, we're probably best off stopping DPS at 32% so he doesn't gain Frenzy AND get the Mark heal. Therefore, we wait till the next Mark target gets hit, and dies and resume DPS on Saurfang who is now at 6.26mill (51%). Then we burn him down once more, this time not stopping. We'll pass into the 30% Frenzy about 74 seconds into the next Mark phase, hitting our third (and first kept) Mark 28 seconds after Frenzy begins, where he'll be at about 1 mill HP (8%) remaining.
The above is really Scenario A, where we elect to get his health as low as possible (~8%) before we must heal a Marked target.
Another very valid option is Scenario B, where we instead allow a Mark target to be applied and kept just prior to Frenzy, but therefore reset his Runic Power so for the majority of 30% to dead, he's got relatively low damage output.
This would simply be the same as Scenario A, except at the point where we're expecting to stop at 32% for the next Mark, we do so again, and as soon as he starts casting Mark we pop Lust and lay into him, healing the Mark target via Beacon Holy Light spam from Thawfore.
By doing the Scenario B method, we should be able to go from 32% to dead in ~79 seconds, which should put Saurfang's Runic Power at about 77% when he dies.
So, Scenario A means we only have to heal a Mark target for about 20-25 seconds total but we'll have to heal the tanks at full Runic Power during Frenzy at some point.
Scenario B means we have to heal a single Mark for 80 seconds but the tanks never have to tank beyond a 77% damage increase.
Any opinions? We can always try both and see what is easiest and perhaps our real world DPS numbers will be off a bit (note that in the above, our sub-30% time frames don't account for Bloodlust at some point, which obviously knocks off a bit of time somewhere).
Edit2: One final thing I thought would help us (Druids) slightly is to have our Mark player(s) run to a designated spot before they purposely die so the ressing Druid can easily click on them since targeting a corpse can be a bitch.
Last edited by Kulldam; 02-22-2010 at 01:06 AM.
Keep in mind that Marked people can also get Boiling Blood. Make sure to maintain the 12 yard distance when running because any ticks on other people will cause Saurfang to generate more RP.
In regards to healing, some posts I have read suggest that priest shields on Boiling Blood will prevent RP generation as well. This could help increase the time we have prior to the first Mark being cast. If we are looking for RP control then this may be an option as well and just have Thaw DPS.
Also, I had a question about healing reduction. Do healing reduction mechanics(poisons, Permafrost debuff, etc) work when the Marked target dies? If so then Nigma can use Aimed Shot for a 50% healing reduction when the Marked person is about to die. We may have discussed this already but I have slept since then.
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